Getting a start in live streaming for your clients, especially for smaller events isn’t as difficult as it once was.
Benjamin Powell: (00:00)
Hi, it’s Ben from BetterCast and welcome to the Better podcast. Today I have the pleasure of talking with Brad Every from Live Streaming Services. And in today’s video, we’re talking about live streaming and where you can start if you’re new to the game, how to deal with event managers and how to deal with them when they’re new to the game, and we find out his thoughts on the future of hybrid and virtual events. Thanks, and enjoy the show.
Benjamin Powell: (00:31)
Hi, Brad. Welcome to The BetterPODcast.
Brad Every: (00:34)
Hi, how are you doing?
Benjamin Powell: (00:36)
I’m doing fantastic. So we’ve worked together on a few projects over the last COVID. I know all about you, but can you tell us a bit about yourself and Live Streaming Australia?
Brad Every: (00:52)
Okay. So Live Streaming Services.
Benjamin Powell: (00:53)
Brad Every: (00:57)
So Live Streaming Services was born when COVID wasn’t around. So, initially, only a few different players in the market were doing live streaming. And having a background in network engineering and IT and then moving from the production side of music festivals and into the more corporate, I guess, side of things I was interested about … I’ve always been curious about communications. So I worked to try and … I started this business, which was Live Streaming Services.
Brad Every: (01:35)
Initially, we did a few little jobs and then as time grew by and understanding of technology, we’ve grown bigger and bigger. So we’ve done shows in New Zealand, Australia, Sydney. I think we’ve been to Brisbane, all over Melbourne, some strange places in Melbourne, had some great clients. We’ve had things like Adidas, Probill, Mercedes Benz. We get a lot of health departments and so forth. So that’s, essentially, we were born out of, I guess, my interest in communications.
Benjamin Powell: (02:17)
Okay. You said that you were doing live streaming before COVID. Why live streaming? Did you see the writing on the wall? Is this something that you knew?
Brad Every: (02:25)
No. I think it was more … I went into live streaming because it was a very niche thing at the time. And I still think it is. If you want to do it properly, I think it’s essential to look at the technology in a way that … You can’t just stick it on Zoom or something like that. There’s a lot more going on. And I think that’s a big misstep from a lot of companies who have gone into streaming and added that as a service because you can’t just go, “Right. I’m just going to stream, and all good.” There’s a lot of other things that come into play.
Brad Every: (03:04)
Sometimes the additional skills do come in handy. So I’ve had occasions where we were tapping into someone’s else’s network as a hard line connection, and we were getting DHCPs, so we’re getting all that and the communications, but we weren’t able to get out. So I was, “Well, have you enabled NAT translation?” Things like that. So having an understanding of networks is desirable, I think, nowadays. And, yeah.
Benjamin Powell: (03:33)
Well, that brings me to the following question: AV guys and girls having to look at streaming as part of a service offering. Where do you think they start? Do you think they need to all have a foundation in network admin?
Brad Every: (03:51)
Look, I think having an understanding of networking does help because it helps you understand how is this packet routed from the encoder you’ve got to the endpoint on the Internet. And also having an understanding of IT because I think AV and live streaming, live streaming is more of an IT facility. It just incorporates AV type functionality, vision switches. In contrast, when we go past the delinear of the actual vision switches and start going to live streaming, you’re working in the IT realm, which is networking in IT. And I saw some excellent disasters, not on my shows. But, still, using PCs as encoders and wondering why it crashes, or using vMix and crashing because it’s a PC controlling it, it doesn’t have enough memory or for whatever reason.
Brad Every: (04:51)
So I think it’s best left to the professionals. It is becoming a point where it has become very ubiquitous in terms of everyone adopting it. But to produce a show that requires a high level of skill to … Because, at the end of the day, as I always say, you can only go live once.
Brad Every: (05:17)
Benjamin Powell: (05:17)
Brad Every: (05:19)
… if you, pardon the French, if you screw it up, then you’ve got no-
Benjamin Powell: (05:29)
Recourse. You can’t go back.
Brad Every: (05:31)
Yeah. You can’t go back. Yeah, exactly. And it’s a big thing. And if you’ve got lots of people watching and waiting on that particular stream, who’ll pay to use your technical services to live stream, and that’s what you should be delivering.
Benjamin Powell: (05:48)
So do you think that rather than traditional teams adding live streaming as an additional service, they should be looking at bringing in a new staff member who is controlling that output? Or do you think it’s something they can easily roll into…
Brad Every: (06:06)
Depending on the model level. But if you’re going to do a Zoom webinar, that’s pretty achievable by most people because many things integrate with Zoom to live stream then. But if you want to adapt and do multichannel pathways or do private channel or registered users, things like that, or embed into, say, stuff like Slido, then you need someone who’s a dedicated person who can understand everything and all the little different bits. Because as a live stream professional, I’m dealing with this stuff all the time, so I know the little nuances with a particular application. One, is a particular one, is Slido. Slido requires a specific link, and you need to edit the code to make that work within its streaming platform because the standard event link that comes from, say, Vimeo doesn’t necessarily need to work. So you need to edit it to make it work with a little bit of code.
Brad Every: (07:07)
But there are things like that that you know and deal with all the time as a professional. Look, if you’ve got … I know that, for instance, Bunnings, they have their little live stream that they do from their studio and then learnt through time to do it themselves and do it in a particular way, and they use vMix. Nothing wrong with that. But yeah, I-
Benjamin Powell: (07:27)
Good Australian product.
Brad Every: (07:30)
Benjamin Powell: (07:30)
Yeah. Did you not … Yeah, they’re a Brisbane company.
Brad Every: (07:33)
Benjamin Powell: (07:33)
vMix is an Australian company.
Brad Every: (07:35)
Okay. Well, look, I mean, Decimators are also Australian, and so is Black Magic. So we do produce some great stuff.
Benjamin Powell: (07:41)
Now, I did not know that Black Magic was Australian. I thought they were from the US.
Brad Every: (07:44)
No, they’re Australian. It’s in Port Melbourne.
Benjamin Powell: (07:48)
Brad Every: (07:49)
Benjamin Powell: (07:49)
Wow. Okay. I’m a big fan of Black Magic.
Brad Every: (07:52)
Oh, so am I.
Benjamin Powell: (07:52)
I’m such a big … I went and bought myself a new ATEM so I could do this. Hey.
Brad Every: (07:57)
Benjamin Powell: (07:57)
Oh, big fan of Black Magic. That’s great. So it’s good to see that there’s a lot of innovation in streaming and technology coming out of Australia. That’s cool. I want to ask you, speaking about technology, I mean, you mentioned just Zoom and Slido, where would you say an early … someone’s got a small event, where do they start? How are they going just to start streaming?
Brad Every: (08:23)
Well, I think the first thing would be… Look, Zoom is powerful. I guess as things go, Zoom is a great product, I believe, out the gate. But also, Restream is incredibly good and very powerful. You can use a webcam, and you can use a Black Magic, the new little ATEMs for it to look like a webcam. So there are some great products like that, that I would suggest that are pretty easy to use and has excellent integration, specifically for live streaming. The great thing I like about Restream is it gives you this preview window. So, in other words, it’s showing you what your viewers are going to see, it gives you the audio, you can preview before you send it out to everyone else, and there are switches there.
Brad Every: (09:16)
Some functionalities have slowly started to come around in terms of Restream. Having used it initially as a platform, it was exciting when you look at new technology, but it would automatically start streaming to that address when you’re used to add a new address.
Benjamin Powell: (09:38)
Oh, fun. That is a bit of fun.
Brad Every: (09:41)
But now it doesn’t do that. Now you can add a new address, and it’ll just have it switched off, which is much better … It’s, “I don’t want you to scream before I’ve told you to. Why are you doing this streaming before?” So luckily, there’s been no major hiccups with that, but that’s a really important one. So-
Benjamin Powell: (10:01)
Okay. Okay. So the first step is using a service like Restream or Zoom. What about when they move a little bit further? Where do you start? Because it’s a black hole of gear, what would be a perfect little hardware setup?
Brad Every: (10:18)
Well, look, particularly when you start looking at … I guess, when you start moving towards hardware and away from software, what’s important is your transmission because even though we have broadband, the upload speed of someone’s connection is usually hammered. So even though, for instance, you might have a hundred megabits connection at home, the problem is that it’s not symmetrical, right?
Benjamin Powell: (10:49)
Brad Every: (10:49)
So, in other words, it might be a hundred over 40. So you’re only going to get 40 megabits up. Now, usually, even at a 40 megabits stream going up, streaming from your computer, you might only get two/three megabits per second. You’re not actually going to get the full 40 megabits per second because the stream has to be able to compensate for the toing and froing of the Internet and what also might be rolling on your network at the same time.
Brad Every: (11:17)
So just because you might have … Even if you have a hundred megabits per second, you still don’t get the full use, facility, of that a hundred meg per second up. For a hundred meg connection, you’re probably looking at … If you get to between five and ten megabits per second up … I’ve even found using a hardware encoder, you could probably do 2.5 safely, 3.5 to five megabits per second on a hundred meg connection, which is what I’ve got at my studio here. So-
Benjamin Powell: (11:46)
Okay. Okay. So you would say a hardware encoder. What about vision switching, and what would be a good little setup?
Brad Every: (11:55)
Oh, look, I mean, I think the little … For someone to look to try and create content themselves or do live streaming, I think that little Black Magic ATMs are fantastic for what they are. They’re definitely not professional. They’re good because they scale, so that’s something you don’t need to worry about, unlike the [inaudible 00:12:15] ATMs. Thanks, Black Magic. Waiting for series two to come out.
Benjamin Powell: (12:21)
I’m sure if they watch this, they will definitely get on it.
Brad Every: (12:24)
Well, no, I have been told, which is a source I cannot name, that they are developing a new version of the Studio HD-
Benjamin Powell: (12:33)
Brad Every: (12:33)
… which, hopefully, should have all the features that they’ve brought along: recording and ISO and scaling in the box, which has been my big thing with Black Magic is you’ve always had to get Decimators for it to do any scaling. So the whole thing is obviously at the same frame rate. Not a big deal, but it can be quite frustrating sometimes. I have to … Computers are a little bit better now, and the Black Magic is a little bit better now where they tend to go, “Oh, all right. So you want 50R?” That sometimes … Previously in the past, computers can be really finicky, and I’ll be, “No, no. I can’t do 50R. What are you talking about?” And then, of course, then you need a Decimator, which is, “Well, what if you don’t have that on your show?”
Brad Every: (13:19)
So it can be frustrating. But, look, the little Decimator of the new ATEM ISO Mini, so the new ATEM Minis, are actually really good. I guess the only thing is, as I said, they’re not professionals, so they don’t have SDR, they’re all HDMI, so if you’ve got any semi-professional broadcast cameras, you’re going to have to get converters to convert that. And I just think they’re messy.
Benjamin Powell: (13:43)
All right. So you’ve been throwing around a ton of acronyms and names and stuff. Where do you think a good place to get a good foundational education would be? Are there specific forums or magazines?
Brad Every: (13:55)
Benjamin Powell: (13:56)
Or it’s just get online and read?
Brad Every: (13:57)
You have to learn it yourself. I mean, look, even … I remember when the first lockdown happened here in Melbourne in Australia, and I was thinking, “Oh, I should do this course on live streaming.” And, of course, it just got really busy, and then it just fell to the side. But there is really no education, no one teaches you, so you just have to muddle through it, which is a little bit disappointing. There is no real, I guess, education piece to try and teach people that. Even having … There is a rather large lacking of knowledge in this area, I guess. It is a specialized area. Even doing audio engineering at SAE, there was no … We didn’t really do a corporate AV, which is where most people go anyway, which is really silly. And I don’t think in IT, they wouldn’t really talk … It’s like a meshing of three different areas because you’ve got networking, you’ve got AV, and you’ve got IT and web development type stuff, depending on where are you going to.
Brad Every: (15:04)
So there’s a whole mixture of technologies that are there, and that’s why it’s very specialized and why … I mean, as much as many people are throwing themselves at doing it because they’ve had to learn it, it’s whether or not they’re actually accomplishing a good result with what they’re doing. And it’s probably okay. And people are used to it now. They’re, “Oh, that person’s muted on Zoom. Unmute yourself. Or can you unmute yourself,” or whatever. Or there’s an interruption in the broadcast. I guess people become a little bit more used to those interruptions. But to do it on a professional level, you’ve got no excuse. You need to have … It needs to be perfect.
Benjamin Powell: (15:43)
And, I guess, the clients, if you don’t deliver a good quality event the first time, you’re never going to get them again?
Brad Every: (15:52)
Yeah. Look, it definitely … That’s why it’s a bit like a DJ. You’re only as good as your last show or as good as your last track. Look, I definitely think that’s why, for me, using bonded encoders, backup encoders, especially for bigger shows, is absolutely paramountly … I guess that’s the wrong word.
Benjamin Powell: (16:17)
It works. It works.
Brad Every: (16:19)
It is absolutely non-negotiable on bigger shows because even though that primary encoder might be bonded and you’re using four different channels to send it, there’s always the case that something could happen because it’s still a computer at the end of the day, and it resets, and you’ve at least got your secondary in there that will just kick in straight away. Definitely, on bigger shows, I would always use … Well, I always use a bonded encoder, but on bigger shows, I always have a secondary that can take over straight away should the primary have some issues because you should always … That’s the IT in my background is that you should always have redundancy or a plan B. You can’t just rely on just that one single connection.
Benjamin Powell: (17:07)
Well, I guess that brings me to the next question about there’s a lot of companies and hotels even that are building these massive virtual studios. I was just on a call with one of the guys who’s been working with Unity to build a green screen studio and this beautiful thing. Knowing that that’s what a lot of people are doing, do you think it’s the right way? Do you think it’s overkill? Do you think that … I mean, you’ve worked with a lot of events. Does it even matter? Do they care?
Brad Every: (17:38)
I think there are two things here: so, firstly, we’re in COVID, so that’s a big thing. So, in other words, in terms of delivering events, I think that we’re in a transition period, people have definitely adopted live streaming, so there’s definitely that essence. But is it overkill? Potentially, yes, because once COVID’s over and done with, once we’re all vaccinated, normal shows are going to come back together, and it’s going to be in-person events again.
Brad Every: (18:11)
Now, people are all generally jumping on the studio bandwagon for now because they’re trying to go, “Right. Well, I need to do this so that I can get clients.” And, yes, there is definitely a larger population who are requesting those services, but I think that it could be folly to invest so heavily in that area. I think to have a setup definitely is a good, wise thing. And I still think that hybrid still has some merit in the future because, well, we’re all used to it now.
Brad Every: (18:46)
So there’s an element of, “Well, I don’t need to travel to go to that conference. So I can dial in remotely.” Or there’s that a lot of remote freedom that you didn’t have before. There was this expectation, “Well, we’re going to fly our delegates out, and they’re going to do the conference.” And whereas now people far more accept the fact is that, “Well, why don’t we just get them in remotely and they can do it. And it’d be nice to have them here because of the networking opportunity.” But there’s a lot of things in platforms now that are creating, I guess, that element of networking to be able to have that feeling still.
Benjamin Powell: (19:29)
I mean, that’s a really good point that everything post-COVID will be hybrid, or at least a vast number of the events will be hybrid. Where do you think that … What does the future hold for AV teams in that post COVID hybrid world? And-
Brad Every: (19:46)
I think … Well, one thing which is really interesting and I’ve also spoken to another AV company and tech about this, is that you can’t go in as you used to, which is that you can’t go in on the day, set up for a broadcast because you’re dealing with technology now. I mean, even though you’re dealing with technology with AV, AV is designed to be, “I set it up. It works.” Whereas live streaming is… A completely different thing. You need to be in the day before, and you need to be testing. You need to make sure everything’s perfect so that when you do walk in the next day, you can just be twiddling your thumbs going, “Great. We’ll just switch the stream on and go,” because things can happen.
Brad Every: (20:29)
I was at a live stream of a funeral today and switched on the encoder the night before, did a test, and when I walked in in the morning, and it said, “Unauthorized,” on my … “I haven’t changed the password. What’s going on here?” But the point is, is that things happen and you need to check before rather than … You need the time to be able to … The time buffer to do tests, to make sure that things work because you can’t … That’s the thing with hybrid now, is you can’t just roll in with a setup four hours before a show and be, “Right. We’re ready in an hour.” You need to set up the night before, do all the testing then, and then have an hour before the show to be able to walk in and do another final check because it’s not as easy as it used to be. You can’t just roll in.
Benjamin Powell: (21:18)
Okay. So there’s almost a new career path for all of the Twitch streamers?
Brad Every: (21:23)
Ah. I’m not so sure about that. I mean, look, the Twitch streamers are, basically, using non-professional cameras. Not all the time, but sometimes if they’re gaming or whatever, but I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily a new career. I think that smart people within AV have worked out and gone, “Right. This is my solution. This what I’m going to go with,” but there’s definitely still people who are trying to drop into live streaming and using a computer like Adobe Live Stream, which is a product that I would have to say is terrible.
Benjamin Powell: (22:02)
I’ve never even heard of it.
Brad Every: (22:03)
Adobe does a live streaming product, which is one of the ones I tested initially. OBS is all right for non-professional. But, again, I wouldn’t use it in a professional sense because you’re relying on a computer. Same with vMix. I wouldn’t use vMix as my final encoder. I know it’s got some really great stuff. It’s got layers. Same with … What’s the other one? It’s a computer as well.
Benjamin Powell: (22:26)
Brad Every: (22:26)
Benjamin Powell: (22:26)
Brad Every: (22:29)
Again, you’re relying on a computer, and we know what computers are like; unless they’re Linux based, they generally will, at some point, they’ll burn you. And then if you’ve got the client sitting in front of you and you’re, “It just … It crashed.” Then what are you going to say now? I mean, look, encoders fail. I think I’ve had an encoding fail. I don’t remember the last time.
Benjamin Powell: (22:56)
Okay. So with an encoder … I know this is going back a little bit, but let’s say you’ve got two cameras, those go into an ATEM and then the ATEM will go into an encoder and then the encoder is what’s directly connected to the Internet going to your destination. Is that correct?
Brad Every: (23:14)
Benjamin Powell: (23:14)
Okay. So really, you could have … What would be a basic encoder like a mid, early level, basic encoder?
Brad Every: (23:23)
I would say a good one to go for, which will give you at least 2.5 to 3.5 megabits per second, which will give you a 1080 picture with 128 kilobits … No, 182 kilobits audio, which is pretty decent, would be the VidiU, a VEU, which is a very original. You can pick one of those up for 500 bucks on eBay if they’re available still.
Benjamin Powell: (23:48)
Brad Every: (23:51)
Teradek, yeah. I swear by them. There are probably some other little encoders like that that you can probably pick up that will just do … That’s not bonded. It’s single point and shoot type encoders. You could start with something like that because it just takes the computer work out. It means you can just plug an HDMI and SDI into the back of it, and the audio and video go in together. You’re not going to get any lag issues because the computer, for some reason, decides it’s going to go on a lunch break. Do you know what I mean?
Benjamin Powell: (24:30)
Brad Every: (24:30)
So the encoder is specifically designed to do one thing and one thing only, and that is to encode video and audio into a data packet stream.
Benjamin Powell: (24:38)
Okay. And send it off to the destination?
Brad Every: (24:41)
Benjamin Powell: (24:42)
Oh, fantastic. All right. Well, last question or one of the last questions: you’ve done a lot of work with event managers. How do you think techs can be a bit more prepared to deal with event managers who are transitioning into hybrid and virtual? And what tips would you give them on guiding those event managers because they will need guidance to deliver a better show?
Brad Every: (25:08)
I think it comes down to their end client at the end of the day because their end client, I think, needs to have a clear understanding of what they’re being delivered. I think it’s also important to incorporate testing to make sure that everything works end to end. I’ve had situations on one particular stream. I remember that we didn’t have enough time to test, and I was able to pull the rabbit out of my hat, and we ended up doing a second stream to a second destination and fix the problem. And I think that’s really important.
Brad Every: (25:53)
And also, the event people need to really go, “What does the client want and how do they envision what they want delivered?” Because I think that that is probably the biggest thing because I can do this really complicated live stream virtually or hybrid or whichever, but how do you want to see it on the screen? I think that’s also understanding how people want to see it because, typically, there’s a couple of different ways: you’re either going to get it … With a simple ATEM, you’re going to have a person and then a PIP or the person and the presentation swapping back and forth, right?
Brad Every: (26:37)
Some other encoders, like Pearl which, very fancy, but very expensive, and I hate them because they don’t have any bonding, will give you the side by side, which is really handy and it’s really great, and that’s cool, and Yeast can do that too and so can vMix. And then obviously you can do supers, but that’s in more advanced ATMs, which can give you that side by side or PIP, a double PIP with graphics and stuff behind. So I think knowing how it’s going to look is really important, and what level of interaction do they want? Do they want to chat? How do they want that interaction? I think that’s also helpful.
Benjamin Powell: (27:27)
So you would say having a good understanding of what services are out there and how you can deliver and then just trying to match their-
Brad Every: (27:36)
Benjamin Powell: (27:37)
… expectations to what’s actually deliverable?
Brad Every: (27:39)
Benjamin Powell: (27:39)
Okay. So it’s really expectation management?
Brad Every: (27:42)
Yeah, because I think that, I always, with any client, I’m, “Okay. How do you want to see it? What is it that you want? What’s important to you?” Because we can do a live stream, but it’s also about in the room as well. So, for instance, with L’Oreal, we did a very simple show. We had VTs that we were playing throughout the sequence, but the main focus was that we were going to run. Essentially, the program of whatever we were running was going to be running in the room as well on a projector. So, in other words, we were just duplicating the program onto the in-house, but also you’ve got to think about … For instance, when we did, it’s, well, we were cutting for live, but we were also cut for the room as well. And so that’s another thing where it’s a mix of AV and lives. It’s, “Well, okay, we’re going to do this camera cut, but we’ve also got PowerPoint slides and VTs and things like that.” So that’s videotapes or movies that we want to play just for-
Benjamin Powell: (28:53)
Brad Every: (28:54)
Oh, filums. Oh, yes.
So that’s where I like, I think … Expectations, I think, is really important around how they want the scene, because the last thing you need is to be able to get into the show and then the client goes, “Oh, but I wanted this.” And that’s by far the worst. I think that planning and showing how it’s going to look, I think, are really important.
I think that’s probably a takeaway from my experience over the last couple of years.
And it also seems that having an understanding of a little bit of code, a little bit of networking, a little bit of vision switching, even broadcast vision switching, and a basic understanding of gear and expectation management. And that gives you a pretty well-rounded skill set to go into live streaming at any level. Would you agree?
Yeah. I think that’s … But it is a big bucket to fill. There’s a number of differences… As I said, live streaming is not just “I can put it together.” There’s a whole bunch of different little areas, and it’s little bits of knowledge. And I’m not saying everyone needs to go become a network engineer to understand live streaming, but having the network and IT background from the last … Spending 10 years in the industry has helped me a lot getting into live streaming because I can go, “Right. Well, I’m going to have this bonded. I’m going to use these multiple links. It’s going to be this many megabits per second. Great. My upload connection. Or I can do a constant ping of a location to make sure that I can see any variances within the connection speed.” There are just little tips that make it a little bit … To make the delivery … Make sure it’s perfect every time.
Okay. And just winding up, I’m hoping to get your thoughts on the events industry as a whole. Where do you see it… What is the standard, in your opinion?.
As I said, I think it will definitely move to hybrid, but it’s about budget, really. I think the problem with hybrid is this: is that you have to pay for the room, the catering, the people there, plus you’ve got to get a crew in live streaming now. And that’s where the issue is. The issue is money. Clients need to be aware that if you’re going to do hybrid, you’re going to need a vision switcher, an encoder, a streaming engineer, audio engineer. It’s not just your standard AV package you’re going to be able to get away with. You need to have skilled talent on the ground to make sure that they can do a live stream, which means, potentially, spending more money, which means that you’re going to need to allocate more funds to deliver a hybrid event.
The difference is, is that a somewhat like non-in-person event at a studio is far cheaper to deliver than having an actual in-person event with people and hybrid because obviously, you don’t need to feed anyone. Whereas if you have a hybrid event where you’ve got a room, you’ve got catering, you’ve got people, and then you have to deliver a live stream on top of that, well, then that just increases your costs by anywhere … I don’t know how much. I don’t want to say a factor. But you’ve got to incorporate that.
Okay. And, as you said, for AV teams, it’s not just plugged in and off you go. You do need a skillset of people to add that additional value to a production. So it still could be a package, but that package is going to be more because of that additional skillset?
Okay. Interesting. I guess, to finish off, if any of the AV teams out there are watching this or event managers who want live streaming services in Australia, how are they going to get in touch with you?
So they can either hit me up on the web. So livestreamingservices.net.au or they could phone me, which you’ll have-
Do you have a 1300 number, which I’ve … It’s somewhere.
Somewhere. Well, it has to be in the links.
Yeah, add it in the links. In the sub-text below. So there, I’d say that’s probably the best.
Awesome. All right, Brad, thanks for taking the time. I really appreciate you chatting.
No problems. Anytime.
All right. Bye.